Oh my goodness. This reminds me a LOT of the stuff that I used to write a couple of years ago, when I would just throw whatever the heck I wanted to into the song, and switch it up every time I got bored of the last idea I had. Plus you have the same focus on melody over pretty much everything else that I used to have (and still do), which is something that I always appreciate.
Looove that guitary synth at 1:07 :D
If I were to give advice to my past self... Well, I actually still have problems where I can't focus on a single idea for too long. The trick is to transition them properly so no one can tell that the ideas are totally different. I think you're actually doing pretty good at that already.
The other thing I had problems with, and maybe you do too, is the whole concept of buildup/breakdown. It took me a long time to realize that having breakdowns was just as important as having climaxes because the breakdown really gives emphasis to the climax. Plus, if you do proper buildup/breakdown, you can take one of these 30 second ideas and expand it out to a minute or two.
Last thing is instrument choice. Nearly all the instruments you're using here sound pretty cheesy, especially in the first half. You could make the song much better with more attention to instrument choice.
Mixing problems: that thing at :45 really hits out of nowhere. It's far too loud and completely overpowers the rest of the song.
All in all I like it though because you remind me of me and I'm a narcissist. lol. But really I do like it, I'll be keeping an eye on you.
Somehow, through a series of strategically placed suggestions, I've gotten the top two NGADM '13 finishers to comment on my songs. SOON, I SHALL HAVE THEM ALL IN MY GRASP!
Thanks a lot for commenting, johnfn. This really means a lot.
If I remind you of yourself, then that's probably a good sign, right? :D
The whole buildups/breakdowns thing never really occurred to me when I first started out making music. Similar to this song, I'd just slap whatever I thought sounded nice into a song and call it a day. There definitely isn't a lot to be said about the structure of this one, but I think that when I made it, I was trying to expand my abilities in different genres as opposed to trying to get better at the structure of a song. Also, the instruments. Hehe. Sorry about that. It just sounded so funny. However, I see what you mean in both of those. I'll try implementing them in future projects.
Hm... Yeah, "that thing" was pretty weird. I'm not quite sure where it came from. It sounded so weird, I had to include it. Won't happen again, sir.
'Bagface'. I try putting hidden stuff in lots of my songs and mp3 files. Personally, I find fun in knowing things that others don't.
Good stuff. Though this is a very minimalistic piece you use what is there very effectively. I really like those echoy noises in the first half - they give a really nice atmosphere. Plus those really nice and subtle strings (that sound a little metallic somehow).
The piano in the first half is really nice too. Great outer space feel.
This piece is making me think that I should really be spending more time on instrument selection and sound design and blablbalbl. AKA BUY OMNISPHERE. lol. Anyway good stuff.
All those echoy noises are random things from like, random sound effects I used in Birth of an Astral Nation, something from Logic which I exported and edited, and then a cool sound made from rubbing a bass drum with a finger.
Also. >spending more time on instrument selection and sound design. BUY OMNISPHERE
I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THIS. Find me on IRC. SkyeWint on irc.rizon.net or on irc.esper.net (yes, I joined there finally as you suggested. Get yer bum on and let's talk)
Your previous piece "Alone and Adrift in the Darkness of Space" is legitimately one of my favorite songs on this site. I liked it so much that I made a post about it and sent it to all my friends.
That piano and silence in the middle is really nice. The silence is just long enough to make me wonder if the song is gone before the next chord comes in.
I really like this piece. I have a soft spot for swelling strings I guess and your incorporation of them in this piece, like in "Alone and Adrift," is perfect. I wouldn't call it classical, it feels a lot more like an ambient piece to me, something like it's been done by "Stars of the Lid" perhaps (though they wouldn't dare use a sitar!). That obviously doesn't diminish from how much I enjoy the song, of course.
I was really concerned about the piano part. I liked it, but didn't think the silence would be particularly appreciated by Newgrounds. I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I'm especially glad you're such a fan of this song and my music in general!
Lovely stripped down arrangement, great vocals and chords. But the real reason I'm leaving you this review is to let you know that this song has been stuck in my head for the last few days.
I think I hear some slight clipping eg 2:05. That is my only complaint. Aside from that this song is perfect. It feels like it should have a million hits on Youtube (checking... well, not there yet, but it'll get there).
This is the first time I've ever favorited someone just after hearing a single piece of theirs. I love the whole thing and you have some ridiculous skill. I'm a biig fan of the monochromatically descending baselines that you do a lot in the beginning of the piece (and a little towards the end too).
One of my favorite parts is that chord at 3:09, I think it's Fm(?), and then how at 3:14 it goes to E, soo good raghh. Also that ascent at 2:21, such a pleasant surprise. And the sweeping arpeggios.
This piece is amazing please write more music soon.
I used to hear those chromatically descending bass lines in other songs and fell in love with them. In my music theory classes, I found out that they were usually made of secondary dominants and borrowed chords. I spent quite a bit of time learning them in every inversion and trying to figure out how to chain them together. It really opened up a whole new sonic palette for me, and now they come pretty much automatically.
Thank you so much for adding me to your favorites. I really like the work you do, and your piece "the fight" absolutely blew my mind. I really wish that I had those kind of chops in electronic music but have absolutely no idea where to start. You should have way more fans with the music you make.
Oh goodness, I was listening to Chrono Trigger music right before this and when this started playing I legitimately wasn't sure if I accidentally just started playing Mitsuda again... That ascending four note piano arp is TOTALLY out of his book (though I doubt it was an intentional reference - I hear Mitsuda in practically everything these days haha).
There are some minor mixing issues - the piano arp is kinda muted in places like :40. The first bit of the song seems a bit more quiet than the rest, and towards the ending the levels of the different instruments are seeming just a bit off to my ear. Again, minor stuff.
On the other hand the composition is just lovely. So many tasteful trills - I wish other people would do that! You nailed the christmas/holiday feel SO well argh! And I really love the melody turnaround at :46.
Oh man... Sanctuary... The song with like 100 reviews... the ultimate challenge as an Audio Reviewer. My review started getting long enough that I needed to split it up into sections, where I would critique individual aspects of the song.
MELODY
Not even gonna bother, the melodies are great. Some are better than others, but I'll get into this in the arrangement section.
MIXING
You've got to be kidding me. The mixing is perfect. Splitting this review up is starting to look dumb. NEXT SECTION
PERCUSSION
Looove. A highlight for me is 1:08 with the vaguely ethnic feel. Also 1:28 with the driving boomy hits. Or the tense tams at 3:11. So much detail work!
ARRANGEMENT
The buildup from 1:00 to 1:20 is really well done and seamless, and the transition at 1:28 is just lovely. Which is good too, because it leads to THE BEST MELODY IN THE HISTORY OF NEWGROUNDS. Alright, that might be *slightly* superlative, but I could really point to only a handful of songs with comparable melodic expressivity to that point, at least on this site.
So let's talk about arrangement - and move in from macro level to micro level arrangement. I assume we're both in agreement that 1:28 is the obvious highlight of this piece. I mean, there is a lot of other great stuff in this piece, but it's not going to top 1:28. So what I think is that 1:28 should come later into the piece. Like, it's the climax, so it should come near to the end, otherwise you're just waiting for the piece to build down, and people are much more willing to let the song build up (rising tension) rather than waiting for the song to build down (falling tension). I think that all the stuff starting at around 2:00 once the 1:28 melody is finally been played out could be moved to the beginning of the song.
While we're talking about it, the thing that I notice that really good artists do is that they'll foreshadow the melody ahead of time. An excellent example of this is "Alone and Adrift" by RetromanOMG (http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/542368) The synth at :29 is really beautiful, and then at 1:00 it develops even more, but once the real melody comes in at 1:23 you realize that everything else was just hinting at that melody, and that makes it even better! So while that 1:28 thing is asdfawesome, you could build up the tension even more and make it better by having hints at the melody earlier in the song. (You may be thinking, ah, that's the thing that johnfn did in "The Fight"! Actually, that was completely unintentional but ... sure.)
The irony is that you do build up a melody which I hear quite a few times through the song - first heard at :36 - but imo it's not as interesting. I mean, it's not bad, and I particularly like that take on it at 1:01 with the crazy chords and trills, but why choose that one when you could have chosen 1:28? :P
Last thing about 1:28 is that the structure of the climax is [BIG 1:28 MELODY] [little 1:28 repeated melody]. In the aim of building up tension for the big melody, I'd suggest to reverse the order, so that you do the quiet idea before the big one. Maybe you could put the melody in a woodwind and tweak it slightly.
I enjoy the stuff towards 2:30, especially that little flair at 2:42 (that was nicely foreshadowed at 2:11, in a different timesig!). I kinda wish we'd hear that flair again, maybe just a little later in a variation.
Again I feel like the arrangement is flip floppy, because this is the great exploration, and 1:28 is where you finally find the treasure!
Last thing: I don't really like that section at 3:03 - it's a tension builder, but it's out of place right near the end of the song, since the next section is very calm and not tense at all.
NIT PICKS
One fun nit pick at 3:43: your melody is building up a lot of tension by wanting to eventually resolve down to the root note (I'm just going to call it C because I only have relative pitch), and the trill ramps up the tension even more... but then you actually hit C as you're going down to B, which dissolves all tension. I really like the idea of drawing out that final resolution though, that plus the OCD timpani roll makes for a great ending.
While the 1:05 trills are awesome and really attention-grabbing, I don't really get what the point of them are (from an arrangement/compositional point of view). They seem to be leading into that hit at 1:07, but that isn't all too obvious.
The other thing I want to nit pick is the quantization errors/humanization you put in. Like 3:31 for example. I mean, if we're to imagine this is being played by a professional orchestra, then they probably wouldn't be making such obvious mistakes. (I was unsure if that was the intent, or if you were going for rubato here - if you were going for rubato then I think you should slow down the entire melody gradually rather than just a singe note.)
On the other hand I like the callback to the melody all the way back at :39. Very nice way to tie the piece together :)
OVERALL
In conclusion, good luck fitting a response to this within the character limit ahahahahh
No but seriously this is great and has a lot of detail - it's amazing that I can write all this about it and still feel like I'm only scratching the surface. I can see why this would be one of your favorite pieces. Is it as good as Encapsulation? Well, this is far more complex, and has far more melodic content, but Encapsulation was arranged much better, and what melodic stuff it had was slightly more mature. So who knows.
...Also Encapsulation was done in 3 days and this was done in a month. That is quite an improvement.
Alright I really need to wrap this thing up. This song is epic, easy 10/10.
Whoaaa, I expected a lengthy review from you but not THIS big. johnfn you da BEST.
"Oh man... Sanctuary... The song with like 100 reviews... the ultimate challenge as an Audio Reviewer. My review started getting long enough that I needed to split it up into sections, where I would critique individual aspects of the song."
Yeah, this track has loads of reviews. It's my most popular track by far. I originally submitted it to a competition but it didn't place in the top 8. On the bright side, however, I landed 31,000 views and nearly 100 reviews, so that's sweet :3.
"Not even gonna bother, the melodies are great. Some are better than others, but I'll get into this in the arrangement section."
For some reason, in this track melodies were never a problem. The melodies all just came to me, which is rare considering what I usually have to go through to make a decent composition.
"You've got to be kidding me. The mixing is perfect. Splitting this review up is starting to look dumb. NEXT SECTION"
I actually think that the mix here is worse than my newer mixes. I find the 3/4 section a bit flat and all over the place. But yeah I was and am pretty proud with this mix otherwise!
"Looove. A highlight for me is 1:08 with the vaguely ethnic feel. Also 1:28 with the driving boomy hits. Or the tense tams at 3:11. So much detail work!"
You know me and my obsession for detailed percussion :3.
"The buildup from 1:00 to 1:20 is really well done and seamless, and the transition at 1:28 is just lovely. Which is good too, because it leads to THE BEST MELODY IN THE HISTORY OF NEWGROUNDS. Alright, that might be *slightly* superlative, but I could really point to only a handful of songs with comparable melodic expressivity to that point, at least on this site."
And that melody was just the result of a minute or two of doodling. And then I spend ages working on the melody for Tomb Shaker and it ends up turning out fairly badly. Brain y u do dis.
But yeah I like that melody too!
"So let's talk about arrangement - and move in from macro level to micro level arrangement. I assume we're both in agreement that 1:28 is the obvious highlight of this piece. I mean, there is a lot of other great stuff in this piece, but it's not going to top 1:28."
In my tracks, the highlights are almost always the climaxes. I still have yet to get the hang of creating meaningful soft sections.
"So what I think is that 1:28 should come later into the piece. Like, it's the climax, so it should come near to the end, otherwise you're just waiting for the piece to build down, and people are much more willing to let the song build up (rising tension) rather than waiting for the song to build down (falling tension). I think that all the stuff starting at around 2:00 once the 1:28 melody is finally been played out could be moved to the beginning of the song."
Totally agree. Either that or I add another climactic section like the first. Buoy suggested that too in his enormous three-account review in pages 17-18 of the review section. I think that might've been just because of time constraints (or maybe because I couldn't be arsed haha).
"While we're talking about it, the thing that I notice that really good artists do is that they'll foreshadow the melody ahead of time. An excellent example of this is "Alone and Adrift" by RetromanOMG (http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/542368) The synth at :29 is really beautiful, and then at 1:00 it develops even more, but once the real melody comes in at 1:23 you realize that everything else was just hinting at that melody, and that makes it even better! So while that 1:28 thing is asdfawesome, you could build up the tension even more and make it better by having hints at the melody earlier in the song. (You may be thinking, ah, that's the thing that johnfn did in "The Fight"! Actually, that was completely unintentional but ... sure.)"
That is an excellent idea. I hear that kind of stuff a lot in pieces from the baroque/classical/romantic era. It makes a lot of sense because right now the 1:28 melody is only there to serve as a high climactic point, when it could sound a lot more developed if I had foreshadowed it a little.
"The irony is that you do build up a melody which I hear quite a few times through the song - first heard at :36 - but imo it's not as interesting. I mean, it's not bad, and I particularly like that take on it at 1:01 with the crazy chords and trills, but why choose that one when you could have chosen 1:28? :P"
Yeah why DID I do that x_x. I personally like both melodies almost equally (I'm slightly more partial towards the 1:28 one though), but arrangement-wise it would've made a lot more sense had I used the 1:28 melody.
"Last thing about 1:28 is that the structure of the climax is [BIG 1:28 MELODY] [little 1:28 repeated melody]. In the aim of building up tension for the big melody, I'd suggest to reverse the order, so that you do the quiet idea before the big one. Maybe you could put the melody in a woodwind and tweak it slightly."
Interesting idea. Would work really well for the 1:42 - 1:47 measures.
"I enjoy the stuff towards 2:30, especially that little flair at 2:42 (that was nicely foreshadowed at 2:11, in a different timesig!). I kinda wish we'd hear that flair again, maybe just a little later in a variation."
Wow, really nice call on that 2:11 foreshadowing thing. That wasn't even intentional but upon listening again I just noticed they're the exact same chords! I guess that's just because I wanted a perfect cadence at both points, but then again at the time I didn't even know what cadences were. I DUNNO.
"Last thing: I don't really like that section at 3:03 - it's a tension builder, but it's out of place right near the end of the song, since the next section is very calm and not tense at all."
Wow, that is a problem I've had with that part for ages now. I agree 1000%. I wanted to transition back from 3/4 to 4/4 effectively but couldn't think of anything other than making a section that's a bit more rubato and less melodic to join them together, and not only did that not even generate a smooth transition, but the resulting section ended up being far too tense for what was coming after it.
"One fun nit pick at 3:43: your melody is building up a lot of tension by wanting to eventually resolve down to the root note (I'm just going to call it C because I only have relative pitch), and the trill ramps up the tension even more... but then you actually hit C as you're going down to B, which dissolves all tension. I really like the idea of drawing out that final resolution though, that plus the OCD timpani roll makes for a great ending."
Oh wow, you're right - it would've sounded better had I not used the root note. WHY DON'T I THINK OF THESE THINGS DAMN IT. Also that OCD timpani roll haha. It's probably the best thing that ever came out of my self-diagnosed OCD.
"While the 1:05 trills are awesome and really attention-grabbing, I don't really get what the point of them are (from an arrangement/compositional point of view). They seem to be leading into that hit at 1:07, but that isn't all too obvious."
Well, partly to lead onto that hit at 1:07, and partly to indicate a sense of danger, since everything before that was serene and calm. I've been criticised for making those dissonant chords and trills too loud, which might make them sound less like a sense of danger and more like a sense of disaster or something haha.
"The other thing I want to nit pick is the quantization errors/humanization you put in. Like 3:31 for example. I mean, if we're to imagine this is being played by a professional orchestra, then they probably wouldn't be making such obvious mistakes. (I was unsure if that was the intent, or if you were going for rubato here - if you were going for rubato then I think you should slow down the entire melody gradually rather than just a singe note.)"
The intent was rubato, or rather just slowing down the melody for the ending's resolution, but again, I agree that it should've been more gradual.
"On the other hand I like the callback to the melody all the way back at :39. Very nice way to tie the piece together :)"
I personally think it sounds a bit forced and would've sounded better if I transitioned properly to it and perhaps played the 1:28 melody instead (except softly of course). But thanks!
"In conclusion, good luck fitting a response to this within the character limit ahahahahh"
IT HAS BEEN DONE.
"No but seriously this is great and has a lot of detail - it's amazing that I can write all this about it and still feel like I'm only scratching the surface. I can see why this would be one of your favorite pieces. Is it as good as Encapsulation? Well, this is far more complex, and has far more melodic content, but Encapsulation was arranged much better, and what melodic stuff it had was slightly more mature. So who knows."
Well, if one track of mine offers any competition to Sanctuary, it would be Encapsulation. That also reminds me that apart from that song, this year I haven't actually made anything that I'm truly proud of, except my Harmony of Heroes arrangement x_x. I mean, I've made some decent stuff this year, but nothing I really poured a lot of effort and work into. It's times like this I wish I didn't have university occupying something like 85% of my time awake.
"...Also Encapsulation was done in 3 days and this was done in a month. That is quite an improvement."
Yeah Encapsulation was just a stroke of luck. I have no idea how I managed to make it in that small time period, and for it to be actually good enough to win the NGMT round it was in. But that is definitely one way of looking at it :p.
"Alright I really need to wrap this thing up. This song is epic, easy 10/10."
Thanks so much for the excellent review. I realise we basically agree on every point, but since when do we DISAGREE on something? Thanks again, this review really is more than I could've ever asked for.
First things first is that snare is amazing. It's the first thing that caught my attention when I listened to the track and it really gives the track a LOT of energy. In fact I liked it so much that I wrote down in my list of musical ideas "write a song with a huge snare." :)
I also really like the use of the electric guitar as texture to bring more energy to the track. I felt like maybe the percussion could have been a bit more varied. You know what would be really awesome? What if in that final coda section starting at 2:00 with the double snare hit you used a similar but more driving snare to really indicate an "end of the world" sort of idea.
The mixing of the percussion is overall really well done.
The melodies are generally really good in dat RPG epic battle sense. I really really love that section that kicks off at :25 that makes use of that RPG III chord idea in such a fun way. However there's a mixing problem here, where the chords and the melody are the same loudness. I think that the instrument carrying the melody should really be front and center, with only the beats louder than it. As is, it sits kind of quietly in the mix and I think that a lot of people could miss it. This problem carries throughout almost the entire track, and it's actually probably my biggest critique.
My other suggestion is that there is no bassline to speak of. I hear almost nothing in the low end of this song at all (alright, it sounds like there's something soft down there, but it's not really filling out the bass as well as it could). In the Chrono Trigger battle music, there's this really sweet bassline that goes through the whole track and really makes the whole thing awesome. Check it out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeNkqEOQ15I&noredirect=1
I'm not saying that you *have* to do something like that, but it would make the track pretty neat :)
Final suggestion is about the melodies (again). While they are good, they aren't really driving the song forward, you know? Some melodies really drive the song forward, but the melodies in this track feel a little "slow" (except at :25). (This is a really hard thing to describe.) I think if you were to bump around the rhythms so that the notes don't always start on beat, you could get some more driving melodies.
I really like the chords at 1:25 that move quickly from one to the other. That's something I don't hear too often, and it works well.
Overall, this track is really good. Totally sounds straight out of some RPG soundtrack, and it uses a lot of the RPG musical idioms really nicely. I think you did a great job here and hopefully my tips can help you make it even better :D
Wow, that's quite a lot. Don't know where to start. But I also don't want to reply just with a little 'thanks'. Indeed I now recognize things you mentioned that I didn't notice before. The mastering can be a problem in LMMS since you also don't have much analyzing stuff available there if you don't add some VSTs. But to be honest, I didn't do much mastering here, just adjusting the volume levels to avoid nasty clipping noises. I don't make use of things like EQs, Limiters, Compressors and such very often, only if it's really needed. Of course lots of people recommend to do it, but in my opinion, it should sound as it would 'normally' do. But that doesn't mean I would never ever do that some day. I'll think about your tips when making a new song next time. They seem to be kinda helpful.