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What a great track! (Except why is that amazing whistle so far back in the mix rarg.) Why don't you write more music? Well I guess there's NGADM coming up so I'm hyped for that but I mean other than competitions. Hehe.

bassfiddlejones responds:

Competitions are what get the blood moving for new music! It's hard to find time these days, so when I have a fire under my butt I get more done. Looking forward to seeing what you put out! Thanks for the review! (I will make the tin whistle more prominent next time!)

In the category of "johnfn's biggest NGAUC disappointments", coming in at a 2000 pt score, what is Jabicho and Peachymaiden not making it to the finals? This song is not perfect - the mixing, while better, still needs a lot of work - but it is still a fantastic piece! It's just beautiful - the composition is, again, excellent, and I absolutely love the live cello. I'm wondering if the slower pace dragged it down a little in score, though it doesn't personally bother me all too much.

Keep it up, you guys! My hypothetical overall score for this one would be something like 9 - 9.5/10

Jabicho responds:

Thanks johnfn! :D I learnt a lot from your mixing suggestions in this song and the previous one! (and I'm still learning)
And thanks for the review! I'm happy you like this song! it means a lot :)
I'm very thankul for all your words! (I'm sure peachy too!) :D

I wasn't your judge this time, but for what it's worth, I really liked this one too. I was a bit surprised that it ended up getting *such* a lower score than your previous track. I mean, it's not *quite* as good, sure, and perhaps the vocals are a little further back at points than I would have preferred, but man!

The overall vibe from this one is just so awesome. I was really surprised to hear such an effective and successful style transition from you (while still retaining your psychedelic style). The "Pyramids falling down" section is just so wonderfully chilling. Apocalyptic psychedelic rock, indeed!

Again, I didn't assign you a score because I wasn't your judge, but I would have given this something like a 9/10. Super cool track.

== I wasn't your judge for the NGAUC but then you send me a PM asking me to review this track so I figured that sounded like an acceptable thing to do ==

First things first. You gotta get better instruments. Consider this your official commandment to learn sound design, or at least find some good presets. Honestly, when I do sound design, 80% is finding a close preset, and 20% is tweaking that preset to get what I want. So you could get 80% of the way there with practically no effort, hehe.

The sounds that you're using currently have 100% maximum cheese factor to them. That can work... sometimes... usually if your song is really sad. This song is not sad. Not in the slightest. :P

I would normally point you in the direction of some similar songs here, so that you have a direction to go in, but in this case I'm not really sure of any super happy upbeat techno. Well, there's obviously chiptune, so you could do something like https://soundcloud.com/ko0x/never-alone or https://soundcloud.com/jayster6721/foreign-grove But I assume that you don't always want to write chiptune (WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU).

There's also the interesting case of the melody at 1:33. It's actually a pretty good melody in that the way that you end it by going downwards is well done. And yet it doesn't captivate me as much as it should, which is weird. What a mystery! And it's not just related to that melody. In fact, I think that all melodies are being dragged down a little bit, for some mysterious reason. What could it be, detective johnfn? Well, I'd say that the #1 suspect is...

THE CHORD PROGRESSION. (In the midrange with a tonic.)

Behold the following mathematical chart based in 100% mathematical reality and following mathematical laws (which I actually dreamed up the other day, not even having heard this song):

Sad Chords + Sad Melody = Sad Song
Sad Chords + Happy Melody = Dancy/Edgy song (my song Light Up is a good example)
Happy Chords + Sad Melody = Wistful song
Happy chords + Happy Melody = DANGER: CHEESY ZONE

(To be 100% accurate, happy + happy doesn't always equal cheese, but it's pretty darn hard to avoid until you get really good.)

Your song has the happiest chord progression ever, and then you put the happiest melody on top... it's too much happiness! (That, and the sound design.) I'm just imagining if you did your progression now, but every other bar you did iii -> IV -> V -> I instead, I think that would add a bit of variation and make the song better. And if you varied up your progression even more, it could be EVEN BETTER.

The melody is not bad. But if you tweaked the progression to be more moody, then the melody would really shine. As it is, I can't really get into it because it's too happy. Also, it gets repeated a little too often, but that could be helped with a different progression, too.

Other assorted nit-picks: I think that I hear some clipping around 1:09.

Also, the song needs a little more bass. You have a bass instrument, but it's not as low as I'd hope.

Hypothetical overall score: 7 or 7.5 depending on how generous I was feeling, hehe. I see that every other judge gave you a 7.5 so who am I to disagree? :P

Hypothetical mini-scores
* Mixing: 3+/4
* Composition: 3/4
* Arrangement: 4/4

LunacyEcho responds:

BIG REVIEW ALERT

=> better instruments =>

I guess I didn't have enough time to tweak them to the right sounds. :P I don't have much of an ear for sound design; that's a goal I really ought to work towards in the future :D

=> maximum cheese factor =>

This is something people have been saying to me for YEARS :D

=> similar songs =>

Ah, both of those I've already listened to from your brilliant newspost! But I get the idea of what you're talking about.

=> you don't always want to write chiptune =>

I was originally going to write a chiptune song for the round! Okay, and orchestral song that turned into an orchestral/chiptune hybrid that just turned into chiptune. But then I came up with this melody and that all fell apart :D

=> 1:33 melody going downwards =>

Yes I definitely did that on purpose because I am a theory god and it was no way unintentional

=> THE CHORD PROGRESSION =>

Uh oh.

=> mathematical chart =>

I talked to LSD about this, and he seems to disagree with it :D But I can think of examples for each of the things you mentioned and see the reason behind them, and that's something I'll definitely have to consider in future songs!

=> too much happiness =>

Well, if you like being grumpy and sad all the time :3

=> iii > IV > V > I =>

Hmm, lemme try this.

...

Wow, that's really good! Although the V>I thing at the end kind of gives it a feeling that it's finishing there, whereas the melody repeats a lot, so I'd kind of want to give it that continuous feeling. I would definitely use this as an ending for each chorus, though!

=> 1:09 clipping =>

HOW?! Just... how did you hear this? You are a true mixmaster.

=> bass =>

I set the bass when I first started writing the beginning, didn't change it, and got used to it :/ It does need a better bass instrument, I agree.

=> Arrangement: 4/4 =>

?!!?!?!!??!

Thank you so much for the amazing review! I'll take all of this advice to heart and make future uploads less... dangerously cheesy. :D:D

== This is an NGAUC Knock-Out Round Review ==

Ah, more heavy metal!

Man, I have to say that the riff that you lead with is pretty great. You’re using some weird scale that I can’t even identify. I love this stuff. And then you lead into another riff, and that one is good too! The whole song segues through different heavy metal parts really well, and that leaves the song sounding very varied and interesting throughout.

However, I did find myself wishing you’d break away from the insane riffing just a little more than you did. A breakdown with, say, acoustic guitar, or maybe something crazy like piano, could really do wonders here to make the song even more varied and interesting.

Like other people mentioned, the drums in this track are lacking a lot of umph. The best way to fix this is going to sound so simple that you might not even believe me, but just bear with me: turn the volume of the drums UP, and turn the volume of every other channel DOWN. :P Yes, it will really work. Just don’t go overboard and make the drums too loud.

The other thing you should know is how to get that kick to come through. You can fix the kick in particular by high passing all your non-bass instruments, so that only the bass of your kick and your bass guitar are coming through in the low end. This will make the kick come through much better!

All in all, this is a pretty great song - it just needs the mix to be tidied up a little, and perhaps a breakdown or two, to be really solid. Keep it up!

Overall Score: 7.5/10

Mini-Scores (see here: http://johnfn.newgrounds.com/news/post/936953):
* Composition: 3/4
* Arrangement: 3/4
* Mixing: 2/4

TSRBand responds:

Thanks for the in depth review :) glad to hear you enjoyed it! Nice idea trying to work some piano in, sounds like a challenge but it's worth thinking about.

Will definitely try upping the drums a little! If it's really as simple as volume levels and giving the kick a bit of a boost like you mentioned then that's great news lol

== This is an NGAUC Knock-Out Round Review ==

Whoa, heavy metal! I always thought that metal was fairly niche, but it’s having a pretty darn large showing in the Underdogs group - and I have to say, your song is one of the strongest metal contenders. It's long, but varied, and it’s an excellent showcase of excellent riffs interspersed with acoustic soloing.

The mixing in this track is pretty darn excellent. You do a really excellent job with utilizing the entire stereo width, which makes the gigantic metal sounds even larger, and the drums are precisely as loud as I’d expect them to be, which is awesome. The only thing that seems a little off is the bass sound - it seems like it could be just a tad louder.

I have to say, this reminds me a lot of Opeth. If you haven’t heard of them before, you should definitely check them out. They seem like they’re right up your alley.

The chord progressions in this song are all great, but if there’s one thing I’m missing from it (well, I admit I’m also missing a vocalist, but I can understand that) is a bit more melodic development. With such nice chord progressions and choice, I really find myself wanting some sort of melodic line on top of them that I can really grab onto. The heavy metal riffing sections come close, but during the acoustic sections I really find myself feeling like the song is just a tad incomplete. It’s still a dang good song, though.

Overall Score: 8.5/10

Mini-Scores (see here: http://johnfn.newgrounds.com/news/post/936953):
* Composition: 4/4
* Arrangement: 3/4
* Mixing: 4/4

== This is an NGAUC Knock-Out Round Review ==

Seven minutes of heavy metal! And a Game of Thrones reference in the title! Oh man!

You start out with some chugging guitars, and that’s pretty awesome! And then the guitars keep chugging… and chugging… And then I get 3 minutes in the song and they practically have never stopped chugging. And although the pattern does change up a few times, by the end of the song I’m left feeling like, aside from a few quick breakdowns, that the entire darn song was chugging guitars.

Now there’s nothing wrong with chugging guitars, but there’s a point where *anything* becomes too much. I’d say that this song *really* needs some structural variation. Slow parts, maybe parts with other instruments like piano, different chords, modulations, etc.

Suddenly at 5:30 I noticed that there’s a baseline to this song! It was really hard for me to hear before, since it’s been buried under all the chugging, unfortunately. The good news is that that’s the only big mixing issue that I’ve noticed with this song. The drums and the guitars all seem to be relatively well mixed - it’s just the baseline which is not really in the picture.

And the truth is that I haven’t really been persuaded by your composition either. I really wanted some sweet melodies or shredded solos or something to really flesh out this piece. As is, it’s just a sequence of chords, and while some of them sound alright together, in sum it’s not super compelling as is. It needs more! (And by that I mean, it should be shorter, but it should have more variation and interest.)

So, all in all, I think that this track is a good start, but it needs to be tightened up quite a bit, and it needs a lot more variation. Keep at it!

Overall Score: 4.5/10
Mini-Scores (see here: http://johnfn.newgrounds.com/news/post/936953):

* Composition: 3+/4
* Arrangement: 2/4
* Mixing: 4/4

== This is an NGAUC Knock-Out Round Review ==

DANG. That riff that you open with is SOLID. Not only that, but your vocals are pretty darn solid as well. I have to admit, I don’t listen to the growly heavy metal lyrics too often, but I recognize excellent vocals when I hear them, and you definitely have them. Well done.

I have to say, while I’m just throwing out all the things I like about this song, that the transition into the chorus, e.g. 1:55, is just really well done and satisfying. The first time I heard it, I got super pumped up!

Not only that, but the spoken word sections, like 1:40, that gradually get more intense into the shouting in the chorus, is just SO satisfying. Yes, it’s kind of a cliche, but You actually got me thinking that I need to listen to more music with growling vocals, which is a singular feat, let me tell you.

I’m actually having difficulty coming up with things to critique. Honestly, the riff may have gotten *slightly* overdone towards the end, but only slightly.

All in all? I gotta say. The vocals are definitely an acquired taste, and you might be distancing a few people who don't like them, but personally? I think you did a REALLY good job here. This was my favorite track in the Underdogs.

Overall Score: 9.5/10

Mini-Scores (see here: http://johnfn.newgrounds.com/news/post/936953):
* Composition: 3+/4
* Arrangement: 4/4
* Mixing: 4/4

== This is an NGAUC Knock-Out Round Review ==

Ooh, a piano piece! In fact, an almost entirely piano piece! AND you’re using the Best Progression Ever (TM), V->VI->vii. Well, actually, you switch it up a few times, which is even better, but yeah, you mostly use the Best Progression Ever. And I don’t really have a problem with it.

You do it in a way that’s not particularly cliche, and so it gives the piece an air of mystery, which I really like. It definitely feels like being up very late, when everyone else is asleep - a mysterious, almost fantasy-like vibe, where anything could happen. At points like 2:58, you transition into different progressions in a nearly effortless way.

I’m also pleased to report that the playing of the piano sounds pretty darn realistic. This is something that bothers me often, so I’m glad to see that you nailed it. The melodies, while not mind blowing, are beautiful. The addition of a few bass notes on the piano is done with restraint and adds a lot to the piece as well. It’s really difficult to critique the piano here.

This piece is super subtle - it’s pretty much just one instrument and a ticking clock - and does not change all that much throughout its runtime, which is both a good and bad thing. It’s a good thing because it sets an ambiance really well, really making the piece slightly magical. It’s a bad thing because the piece almost seems insubstantial. The piece barely progresses at all - it changes progressions only once, and then back.

I have to say, while I’m being critical, that the really drawn out introduction doesn’t do a lot for the piece. I don’t really think that it’s necessary.

But overall, I thought this piece was really nice - a very pleasant listen. With a bit more development, I think it could be something really special.

Overall Score: 8/10

* Composition: 3+/4
* Arrangement: 2/4
* Mixing: 4/4

== This is an NGAUC Knock-Out Round Review ==

Dang, son! This is a great song.

The mixing is spot on! It would be really hard for me to distinguish this song from a professional track. The vocals sit in the mix just right, and the guitars and drums are mixed very well.

Not only that, but the composition is really good, too. This is one of those rare songs where composition and mixing are both solid! Right from the lead in at :15, I could tell that this track was going to be really good - the opening melody is great, and it’s properly expanded upon with lyrics afterwards. The whole verse section is really good.

If I was to complain a little, I’d say that the transition from the verse to the, eh, other verse? The transition (At “that’s why I’m telling you”) seems rather abrupt. Nothing about the song changes at all when you switch between one melody and the other, except for the melody itself. I think it would have been more effective if you had a slightly longer transitory phrase than just a single line, and if you added or removed some elements from the second melody section so that it would sound suitably different from the first. This would give the feeling that the song evolved a little bit. As it is though, I’m not sure if that final section is quite as strong melodically as the verses that precede it.

Anywho, this is a really good song. I had a few minor nit-picks, but I still enjoyed it quite a bit - it was one of my favorites of the underdogs.

Overall Score: 9/10

* Composition: 4/4
* Arrangement: 3/4
* Mixing: 4/4

i always forget to respond to PMs. its not because i hate you, just because i forgot!!!

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